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New rudder for wing keel boats

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melelana		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 329 11/12/07 14:59:49	Nick, That's right. It was Marc on Relax (IIRC) not Gaston. I don't recall Marc posting photos, but he did provide a great deal of data. The new owner has provided me with photos of the rudder (with a tape measure in the photos for scaling) and those are his words in my previous post. As his communication was with me directly, I haven't reposted the photos. Marc also added a leisure furl furl system and increased the sail area of the main somewhat. I'll contact the new owner and see if he's happy to share them more widely and, if so, ask Norm to host them on the site. Larry Larry Melelana Catalina 42 #175 1990 3cbn, wk Solomons, MD
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svzephyr44		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 113 11/13/07 19:40:03	Thanks again Larry for your long and detailed reply. I hope for your sake that there are others benefiting from your effort in addition to me!!! I will see how this develops as I am not sure where I stand. When we get heel and major helm problems we simply reef to get the boat more upright if we are cruising (or throw all the rail meat on the windward rail if we are racing!) And yes, we have managed to get into exactly the configuration you describe, lots of heel (and drama - rail in the water hi! hi!); lots of rudder angle; and lots of drag! My biggest concern is expecting something that is not possible - for example a major performance improvement. If the new rudder were achieve a major improvement I am quite sure that US Sailing and PHRF would take it all back anyway! So at some level I would be back to square zero anyway. A second concern is investing money that would never have any possiblity of return For example, a friend is replacing the engine on his 1970ish Catalina 30. The engine is costing him 3 times what he paid for the boat! I am not sure that a different rudder configuation would show up at all in a resale, and could possibly show up as a reduction in value. Finally, I know what I purchased. If I wanted a race boat I should have purchased one, I think the Catalina 42 is a very nice cruiser/racer with more emphasis on cruising. Handicapping makes me competive but lets be serious - it really has a lot to do with a skill base I am still learning. So, I am keeping track of this and as we get further down the line I realize I will be forced to make an actual decision. Larry, thanks again for keeping me informed. Roger Reboot #493 Roger REBOOT USA 60493
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nickwigen		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 216 11/14/07 09:54:15	Hi Roger, We have hull 178 with a fin keel but the old rudder designed for shoal draft. After owning and sailing several boats over the years it still surprises me how long it takes me to learn a new boat. (Must be a slow learner). We sail on the Columbia River which means good winds but as it blows almost right up the river we do lots of beating. At first we had weather helm problems until we made some changes: If we get above 22° heel we reef. Because our boats are beamy they don't like to heel much. Put a reef in the main, lose 5° of heel, gain half a knot and start having fun again. Depower the main by easing the traveller or let the top twist out. Replace the main. Our tired old orignal main had lots of draft. The new Rolly Trasker we put on 2 years ago has much better shape. Replace the propeller. The standard advice is to lock the prop by sailing with the transmission in reverse. The 18" 3-blade distrupts the flow over the short rudder and reduces it's performance. You can try this as a test sometime by sailing hard to weather with the prop free wheeling and then pull it into reverse. We installed a feathering prop and that helped quite a bit. Tighten the backstay so you have 4-5" maximum sag in the headstay. Now unless we get hammered by a sudden gust we hardly every have more than one wheel spoke of weather helm and we don't fight the boat any more. The rudder is still less than optimum but we can live with it. Nick Wigen Ursa Minor #178 FK, 3-Cabin Portland, Oregon
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philipgp		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1 04/28/08 06:57:48	Wondering if this is still an open topic. I am very interested in a fix. Either a new rudder design or how to modify my existing rudder. Does anyone you know have instructions on how to modify existing? Thanks, Phil Mugwhump #760 3/Wing
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capt Bear		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31 04/30/08 18:45:11	I am following this thread with intrest. Might be interested, as anything that can impove preformance to wind is welcome. Barry Surprise #998 3-cabin Pullman w/k
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melelana		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 329 04/30/08 19:36:42	Guys, Just returned from a business trip. Apologize for being off the air. There are a few of us interested in a better rudder for wing keel boats. It's been successfully done in other boats to great benefit. I've talked to a designer who will draw us a new foil pretty cheaply and a rudder manufacturer who will work to "match up the foil" with an existing design for another boat that would save a great deal of non recurring cost. I estimate it would take about 20 orders to amortize the on recurring if we went with an entirely new mold. If we had 20 serious buyers, we could start down the path. I estimate we have about 6 interested folks at any one time. I also suspect a group of 20 serious buyers might be able to convince Catalina to take another look. Here's the rub. The wing keel will never go to windward like the deep fin. An improved foil with more balance area might reduce helm loads but even if it "feels better", an overpowered boat on the wind will have a lot of weather helm and that's slow. More balance area may also make the port turn divergence under power worse as prop wash will have more area ahead of the post to act on. Have thoughts on rudder design changed in 20 years? Probably. Are the costs and trades worth it? Hard to tell. I race a lot in a modern one design and I can tell you a high aspect fin and a deep elliptical rudder has a very nice feel although the groove gets narrow and hard to feel and it's much easier to stall the foils and either just go sideways or round up (or broach) if you get careless. Those foils would not work well on our boats. We've had a couple of owners reshape the existing rudder and they seem to like to change. One does note that the boat is a little worse under power but is still OK with the trade off given the improvement he feels it has made under sail. I'll send some pics of one reshaped rudder to anyone interested. Just send me a PM and I'll send them out. Use that profile at your own risk, so to speak. Larry Melelana Catalina 42 #175 1990 3cbn, wk Solomons, MD
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