Does Anybody Have Heat On Their C42

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Bill Jenks	Does Anybody Have Heat On Their C42		Lead	[-]
Posts: 22 09/24/07 21:13:13	Tags : None We are looking into installing heat in our 1999 C42. It is a 2 cabin pullman. We do not live aboard and we sail on Puget Sound in Washington. We have talked to a couple of different installers and have there ideas but they have never installed a heater on a C42 so we would love to hear from anybody who has heat on their C42 to find out what was done and how they like it. If you have heat installed on your C42 is it an Espar or a Webasto? What is the model number or size of the unit? How many and where are the outlets? Would you do anything different if you had it to do over again? Any information would be helpful in making our decision. Thanks everybody Bill and Laura Unzipped Again Hull #674 1999 2 cabin pullman
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afterglow		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 54 09/25/07 08:48:31	Bill - we live and keep our boat on Bainbridge Island. Our 1992 2-cabin pullman has a diesel heater with two vents in the main cabin and no venting elsewhere. Both vents are on the starboard side, one under the settee adjacent to the head, and one under the nav station. The heater itself is located in the starboard lazzarette, above the shelf. The control panel and thermostat is located above the electrical panel on the starboard side of the main cabin. I'll find out the manufacturer and model number and get back to you. We're happy with the unit and it doesn't disturb us that there are no vents elsewhere on the boat. If we want to heat things faster, we shut the doors to other parts of the boat and the temp goes up about 5 deg. in, say, 30 minutes. We find that if we use the heater often, the slight diesel smell disappears. If money is no issue, I'd probably buy a unit that heats via hot water. That way, you'd get cabin heat and hot water at the same time.
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afterglow		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 54 09/25/07 10:44:27	Bill - The diesel heater we have on Afterglow is an Ardic 041-D. We bought the boat last year with the heater already aboard so I have no idea how old the heater is. Ardic was (is?) a division of Volvo. The owner's manual says it was purchased from Scan Marine Equipment on Westlake in Seattle.
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seaair		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 64 09/25/07 11:28:37	Bill - We installed an Espar 10 hot water system on our 3-cabin Pullman. I did most of the installation myself, and can tell you that it is a fair amount of work - not difficult, just a lot of it. We are generally pleased with the results, but there are a few things I would do differently were I to do it over. We installed heat exchanges in each of the three cabins, and put one in the main salon. There are two vents on the exchanger in the salon to spread around the heat, and two vents on the forward cabin exchanger - one for the cabin, and one for the forward head. There is only one thermostat in the main salon, but it appears to do the trick. It takes about 5 minutes for the heater to warm the circulating water enough to turn on the fans on the exchangers, and about 15 minutes for the boat to reach the set temperature. We also plumbed in a heat exchanger on the engine loop so that if the engine is running it will heat the circulating water and the heater will not have to work as hard. For the times that you only want hot water, and not heat the rest of the boat, there is a summer valve that directs the heated water only through the hot water tank. All in all it works well. The major problem with our setup is that the way we have the circulating hot water plumbed, we don't have domestic hot water unless we have the heating unit on. (Running the engine no longer heats the domestic hot water.) Generally it is not a problem, I just have to remember to turn on the heater for some time while we are underway if I want to take advantage of the engine heat to heat the hot water. (The heater will heat the water anyway, but would like to use the waste heat from the engine.) One fix for this would be to run the circulation pump when the engine is running (I need to check that out with Boat Electric to see if it can be done), or replace the hot water tank with one with two heating loops as suggested by Ken Fisher (see the post on that subject). Our other problem is that the heater is loud when it is running (think jet engine). I gather there are better mufflers, but I haven't looked into it yet. It hasn't been installed long enough to have any maintenance issues other than the occasional top up of circulating water because I have a leak somewhere. I gather they are relatively trouble free. You will probably want to talk to Boat Electric in Seattle about buying the unit. Some people have had problems with them (mostly I think due to price), but I have found them good to work with and willing to make up some special fittings that I needed in a timely manner and at a "reasonable" price. As I said, I did most of the work on the installation. I was not difficult, but requires some basic skills with power tools (and the careful application of four letter words). The two pieces I didn't do were the plumbing of the fuel supply, which can be tricky, and the installation of the muffler, which involved getting intimate with the fiberglas wrapping. At least on the 3-cabin there is a way to get from the engine room forward to the salon that was big enough for the main heating hoses. (There would not be an easy way to install a hot air system on our C42.) Beyond that it is just a matter of making sure there are no air pockets in the heater hoses. The boat lives at Elliot Bay marina in Seattle if you would like to have a look at our installation. Hope this helps. Warren Seattle, WA Sutlej, #920 3-cabin pullman
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kenfischer		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 172 09/25/07 20:59:26 Moderator	I have to second everything Warren has to say. Boat Electric was great to work with. We added a second thermostat to the forward stateroom because the lone heat exchanger up there is not balanced with the rest of the boat. In other words, the forward cabin was still a bit cool when the rest of the boat was toasty. We also found that the aft cabins were over powered. In that case, we bought slower speed muffin fans, which both reduced the heating and also made the units quieter. So our system has two zones and six heat exhangers. We will be adding the hot water loop with the aforementioned double loop water heater, and may also add zoning for the aft state rooms. Another item we are creating from scratch is the ability to thermostatically control both the Espar and the 110v units via the two existing aquastats on the heater. This requires a few relays, but should work out well. If you turn the system on with the thermostats set low, the Espar will run to make hot water, and then shut off. (This part of the logic is on the Boat Electric control board, which is not an Espar item.) The trick is also controlling the 110v heating, all without additional aquastats. Warren: Boat electric has their own brand of muffler which is a huge improvement and much cheaper than the official espar muffler. Which one doe you have? Ken Fischer 2005 C42 #906 "Solaria" 3 Cabin Pullman, Fin Keel, Mast Furling Main, 155% Genoa
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captnron		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 09/27/07 13:43:46	Bill, I have the Ardic diesel hotwater unit, Ardic was taken over by Espar I think, parts available from Scan Marine, I have had good service from them the two times I ordered parts and asked for advice. The furnace/burner is in port locker it feeds heated coolant via hoses to the the heat exchanger fan blower which is under the floor just to port of the dust bin. The side of the plastic dust bin has 2- 4" ducts cut in it to act as return air feeds to the blower/exchanger. The hot air ducts feed the two aft cabins, aft head, main cabin, pullman and forward head, they are routed under floor using a black aluminum flex tube (defroster style). It was formed to get by narrow floor sections. I did not do the install, came with the boat. The heating coolant (actually engine type anti-freeze) was plumbed into the heat exchanger of the hot water tank and shared this coolant with the engine via a special non controllable valve system. I did not like this set up because if a hose happened to fail on the furnace side it would compromise the engine cooling as the systems were linked. The systems were later isolated, I did lose the option to heat the HWT with the furnace but suppose it could be re-connected by a control-able 3 way type of valve set up. I did remove the muffler as the stainless tube looked rusty near connection, the muffler was replaced with the proper flex stainless tube plus insulation, inside the boat I hear no difference in sound and not much difference outside either, maybe I'm going deaf. Overall it still heats the boat very well when needed in fall or on winter days when on the hard at 25F . Ron 3 cabin, fin #224
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ajchan		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 153 09/28/07 22:26:27	Hi Bill I installed an Espar D5 forced air diesel heater on Threepenny Opera this spring. I did all of the work myself and like Seaair's experience I would say that it is reasonably straight forward, but very time consuming. The trickiest part in the install is of course the routing of the heater ducts. I walked around with scraped knuckles and fibreglass rash on my forearms for several weekends while I was doing the work. Unlike the install routine by the commercial installers, who take a 4.5" hole saw and cut a series of holes through bulkheads, hanging lockers and settees, in a more or less straight line from one end of the boat to the other, I was determined to not lose any storage space. To accomplish that, I took up all of the floors, and I mean every scrap of wood on the floors to access the fibreglass floor plate, in which I drilled strategically placed access holes. I pulled, or pushed the ducts to where they needed to go via the holes, and then strapped the duct to the underside of the floor plate. The result is that I have a duct in the forward head, one in the pullman cabin, two in the main salon, and one in the aft cabin, without losing any appreciable amount of storage space. I skipped the aft head, but because the ducts run under the floor, it is now possible to show off the new heated floor feature!! I installed the heater in the port lazzarette, by hanging it from the back of the battery compartment. I placed the unit far enough outboard and low enough so that the exhaust hose was close to the hull, and generally protected from accidental damage by the unit itself. The return air is located on the bulkhead just above the garage door, and I put the thermostat on the valence between the two cupboards on the port side of the main salon. All in all the unit operates very well. It makes less noise than my furnace at home, and it is pretty frugal on both diesel (~.5 liters per running hour), and battery power. On startup, the unit draws a pretty frightful amount of amps, ~12-13, but once the unit is lit, and the boat warms, the power consumption drops down pretty quickly ~3. Still I wouldn't want to be away from charging for more than 24 hours if I was running the heater constantly. In July of this year, we spent a few cold damp nights on the hook in the Thousand Islands, where the heater provided some welcome comfort. In the morning, my fully charged batteries were showing ~ 12.3 volts, so it was time to give the engine a bit of a go. The side benefit from that was of course we solved our hotwater problem as well. The best news of all is that my wife considers this the best money we've spent on the boat! I looked at Webasto, and came within a hairs breadth of buying a Cl 99 unit, but the final determinants against the Webasto, were the size of the heat exchangers and the relatively higher power consumption. In any case, now that I have heat on board, I would consider it to be an absolutely essential system, even more important that air conditioning for the Great Lakes. Addison Threepenny Opera 1999 C-42 MK II, 2CP Wing #640 http://the-voyages-of-threepenny-opera.blogspot.com/ Last Edited By: ajchan 09/28/07 23:10:34. Edited 1 time.
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Bill Jenks		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 22 09/30/07 19:51:28	Hi Addison Your instalation sounds like what we want to try to do. We are thinking about the Espar D8 rather than the D5. We have been told we need the bigger unit because we sail year round. Where did you install the ducts - in the floor or up on the sides of cabinets, walls? How did you get the ducts under the galley floor? Ours galley floor is not wood but some kind of sheet rubber or vinyl. Would you do anything different if you had it to do over again? Might you have any pictures? Bill and Laura Unzipped Again Hull #674 1999 2 cabin pullman
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ajchan		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 153 10/02/07 21:44:07	Hi Bill I'll try and get you some pictures when I get back to the boat. I'm currently away on business. As for the question about the galley, I ran my ducts down the starboard side of the engine compartment, and then fished it through an opening I cut underneath the location of the fuel filter. Once I got the hole cut, I managed with a lot of huffing and puffing to pull the duct through the hollow space under the cabin sole, and just outboard of the starboard engine compartment wall. The ducts were then pulled under the aft cabin floor and into the bilge area forward of the dust catcher at the base on the companionway. I cut a hole into the base of the settee just forward of the galley unit and came straight up into the settee area. The ducts run along the back of the dining area settees, just under the outboard lip, so when you remove the cushions, you can barely see them unless you look underneath. I passed through the bulkhead into the settee compartment against the forward bulkhead of the salon. The hole to pass through the bulkhead was absolutely brutal to cut because it was solid fibreglass at least 5 inches thick. Once I was into the settee compartment, I was almost home, because I installed a Y fitting and fished one duct up along the shroud base tension rod into the little cupboard and then through the wall over the forward bunk and just under the shelf. For the other duct, I cut a hole that came through under the forward berth, and outboard of the water tank. Once I got to the forward berth area, I reduced to a 2" duct and went behind the drawers forward to the bulkhead just above the base of the head. I have 1 duct in the aft cabin mounted about midway in the cabin, there are 2 in the salon, 1 in the base of the settee blowing under the table, and 1 in the face of the cupboard, between the door and the forward bulkhead. (it just fits), the unrestricted vent went into the forward cabin, and a 2" duct went into the forward head. It is not an easy job, but it perfectly doable if you don't mind crawling around on your hands and knees for sevceral days. Also the job is impossible unless you lift out the floor boards! Finally, I looked at the specs for both the D5 and D8 and while the D8 gives off more BTU's it also consumes considerably more fuel and uses more power. I elected to try the D5 first, reasoning that if I couldn't stay warm, I could replace the unit with something larger. Once the ducts are in, changing the actual heater unit should be fairly straight forward. Addison Threepenny Opera 1999 C-42 MK II, 2CP Wing #640 http://the-voyages-of-threepenny-opera.blogspot.com/
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kenfischer		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 172 10/03/07 20:06:57 Moderator	Another note on heaters... We lost several fenders and a binnacle cover to charterers stuffing things in the laz and then turning on the heater. The Espar (Hydronic 10) has four threaded holes on the face of the unit. We attached a large piece of heavy gauge aluminum sheet metal to this, which generally covers the heater and most of the exhaust work. You can now leave the heater running for hours and still put your hand on any place on the metal - only luke warm. We've completely solved the melting problem. Ken Fischer 2005 C42 #906 "Solaria" 3 Cabin Pullman, Fin Keel, Mast Furling Main, 155% Genoa
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countferrari		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 94 10/09/07 13:01:54	I will chime in for our air to air heater. I have '94 two cabin with Webasto Air Top 3200 (close to that) and it only has one outlet which is at the base of the stairs pointing forward. The intake is in the galley. The unit is mounted above the hot water tank in the engine room and easy to take in and out which I did until I replaced my batteries and finally got a solid voltage of +12.2 v! It is jet engine noisy but it comes on quick and keeps the Countess happy. It came with the boat and is sold and maintenanced at Sure Marine on 28th in Ballard. All is good now with a simple system. No hot water on the hook though which would be nice but I am not out much in the winter cruising for weeks on end like the summer. Hydronic is more money and certainly for any liveaboard situation. This Air Top unit is not for weeks of continuous use but it sure works well for us. S/V Jah Mon,1994, Mark I,Hull #428,Two Cabin,Fin Keel,Anacortes, WA,Puget Sound PHRF 122
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