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That's the crux of the problem. Catalina feels the existing rudder is adequate and a new design is not needed. I approached Gerry Douglas with the question at a rendevouz about 3 years ago. To be fair, there are some limits as to what's possible with the shoal draft (rudder draft needs to be at a minimum 4" less than the keel) and balance area. Increased balance area would reduce weather helm pressures (but the weather helm would still be there) but exacerbate the "hard left turn" tendancy the boats demonstrate under power as prop wash would have more balance area to leverage.

In talking with a noted designer, he's prepared to draw up a new rudder for about $500.00 and work with a rudder manufacturer to see if an existing mold could be adapted as a "close match" to save the mold costs. In talking to a rudder manufacturer, then recurring costs would be about the same or a bit higher (10-20%) than Catalina's. Those who paid the non recurring woud own the rights and we would have to discuss with the designer if we "owned" unrestricted rights or if a license fee would be needed for each rudder.

The Cal 40 fleet did this a few years ago and engaged Carl Schumacher (before he died) to design their new rudder. With 20 owners chipping in, it cost about $1800/rudder, including new HMWP bearings that one of the owner's designed and prototyped. In their case, they deeded the design rights to the guy who worked up the bearings, but I believe it's now available to members of the Cal 40 association without charge.

Best case would be if Gerry had a change of heart and incorporated a new design for us "stubby keel" boats as he did for the fins when he incorporated that nice elliptical rudder at around hull 500. However, the existing rudder works, emgineering costs both money and time as has to compete with other demands and margins in the boat business are challenging.

Long way to answer the question, but anything we fund the NRE on belongs to us, not to Catalina Yachts. I'd love to put a new rudder in Melelana before the spring season gets started.

Roger,

No problem. I'm feeling guilty that work committments have kept me from communicating as much as I'd like.

Trim tabs. Trim tabs were very popular in the 60's and early 70's (and were widely used on 12 Meter boats) to balance helm forces and are still used on some boats today. In the early 70's, I was the helmsman on a 54 footer with a trim tab and it was pretty unwieldy to use. After a season of sailing with it, we glassed it in and went without as the IOR rating rule penalized us for the tab and it didn't add much to performance. Linkage is complicated (and expensive).

Most complaints about the existing rudder center around the way in which it loads up in 15-20 knots as the boat heels. In adition, as weather helm builds up, the additional rudder angle needed to counter it adds significant drag, slowing the boat. A more efficient shape (within the limits of draft) and fine tuning the balance area has the potential to reduce rudder forces and improve performance. A couple of owners have modified their rudders and report that they are happy with it.

Old timers on the forum may remember "Gaston" who modified his rudder. The current owner's comments to me are :

"Not having owned the boat prior the the new rudder I have nothing to compare it with but from what I have read there was a lot of helm with the original. I find the boat sails to wind with just a slight bit of weather helm in winds over 15knts and in winds under 15Knts the boat will steer itself without the wheel brake applied. I've owned a lot of boats and sailed a lot more and I find my boat steers as well or better than most . Motoring is another story ...you have to hang on with both hands. I assume this is caused by the proximity of the prop to the rudder (it's very close and was made closer by the install of 1" shaft saver/spacer). I also have an auto prop which may add to the problem. I really doesn't bother me as i use the pilot when motoring but I was wondering......"

On Melelana, I have an Autoprop with the original rudder and I wouldn't say I have to hang on with 2 hands, but it does require constant right rudder pressure under power. Having raced a lot on "modern"fin keel race boats, there is a world of difference in feel and response. I'm sure that a big part of that difference is the short wing keel vs a 7+ foot, narrow chord fin on the race boat and I suspect any improvement we would see would be incremental, not revolutionary. As Bob Perry says, there's nothing that makes a boat go well to windward like deep draft and we have traded that off for thin water access.

I would consider any design that was not a "drop in" replacement in the same way a replacement Catalina rudder unacceptable. One possible outcome is an opinion from the designer that only marginal improvements to the existing design are possible given draft and installation lmiitations and that might lead to a decision that a redesign just isn't worth the cost.

Larry

Nick,

That's right. It was Marc on Relax (IIRC) not Gaston. I don't recall Marc posting photos, but he did provide a great deal of data. The new owner has provided me with photos of the rudder (with a tape measure in the photos for scaling) and those are his words in my previous post. As his communication was with me directly, I haven't reposted the photos.

Marc also added a leisure furl furl system and increased the sail area of the main somewhat.

I'll contact the new owner and see if he's happy to share them more widely and, if so, ask Norm to host them on the site.

Larry